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Nick
01-16-2010, 11:04 AM
The log that opens when I click on "Show Log" from my menu bar is not the same as the log that opens when I request it from the Scheduled Copies window. In fact, I discovered that my SD! has two separate Log folders:

~/Library/Application Support/SuperDuper!/SavedSettings/.Default Settings.sdsp/Logs

and

~/Library/Application Support/SuperDuper!/Scheduled Copies/Smart Update Nick's HD Clone from Nick's HD.sdsp/Logs

The first Log folder is what opens when I access the log from the menu bar; the second, when I access the log from the Scheduled Copies window. The first has only a few logs, none of which are current; the second has about twice as many, through to the current one.

Why the difference? And why can't I get to my current log via the menu bar? And why is the log that opens from the menu bar located in an invisible package?

dnanian
01-16-2010, 11:07 AM
The logs are stored with the settings they reference. So, a schedule has its own settings (the sdsp) and inside that package are the logs for it.

The main window when nothing is open has its own logs (.DefaultSettings.sdsp).

Any other saved settings—scheduled or not—would have *their* own logs.

The Window menu opens the logs for the main window. If the scheduled settings are loaded in that window, you'd get that schedule's logs... otherwise, you can access any number of schedules' logs in Scheduled Copies by selecting the entry and using the button.

Nick
01-16-2010, 11:15 AM
The logs are stored with the settings they reference. So, a schedule has its own settings (the sdsp) and inside that package are the logs for it.

The main window when nothing is open has its own logs (.DefaultSettings.sdsp).

Any other saved settings—scheduled or not—would have *their* own logs.

OK...got it!

The Window menu opens the logs for the main window.

Huh?

If the scheduled settings are loaded in that window, you'd get that schedule's logs... otherwise, you can access any number of schedules' logs in Scheduled Copies by selecting the entry and using the button.

Sorry, Dave...I don't quite follow. I'm tripping over the references to "Window menu," "main window," and "that window."

dnanian
01-16-2010, 11:17 AM
The main window is the window that basically contains the loaded settings—it has the source/destination pop-ups, etc. You can open settings using File > Load Settings, save them with File > Save... each contains its own log, accessed with Window > Show Log.

If you don't explicitly load settings, you get the defaults.

Nick
01-16-2010, 11:28 AM
The main window is the window that basically contains the loaded settings—it has the source/destination pop-ups, etc. You can open settings using File > Load Settings, save them with File > Save... each contains its own log, accessed with Window > Show Log.

If you don't explicitly load settings, you get the defaults.

I just opened SD!, and went to File > Load Settings... . It opened a Saved Setting dialog window, which is empty.

dnanian
01-16-2010, 12:28 PM
It opened a File Open panel, no?

Nick
01-17-2010, 07:40 PM
It opened a File Open panel, no?

Yes. But there are no files in the window and (of course) the "Open" button is unavailable (grayed out).

dnanian
01-17-2010, 07:42 PM
That would be because you have no saved settings in that folder.

Nick
01-17-2010, 08:12 PM
That would be because you have no saved settings in that folder.

I feel like Lou Costello (seems like we're going around in a circle: I don't quite get it. :( )

dnanian
01-17-2010, 09:16 PM
Sorry. I don't know how I can explain any better at this point, Nick.

tdenson
03-06-2010, 07:50 AM
I have read this thread and I have exactly the same confusion as Nick.
My basic problem is that I only ever see one log file, even if I select the Scheduled Copies window. In words of one syllable how do I look at my history of backups ?
Also, it is very difficult to see the wood for the trees when looking at a log file - is it possible to have a much simpler display that basically says worked or failed.

dnanian
03-06-2010, 09:49 AM
Well, SD! will always stay open (and turn the entry red) if there was an error. The details in the actual log are intended to be detailed, because the summary is in the Scheduled Copies window.

If you want to see other logs, Cmd+click the title of a given log and choose the "Logs" folder there.

tdenson
03-06-2010, 09:56 AM
Well, SD! will always stay open (and turn the entry red) if there was an error. The details in the actual log are intended to be detailed, because the summary is in the Scheduled Copies window.

If you want to see other logs, Cmd+click the title of a given log and choose the "Logs" folder there.

Ahh, I see my problem. I've only ever had one entry in the Scheduled Copies window because it always fails. I need to work out first why it's always failing.

dnanian
03-06-2010, 09:57 AM
Well, no: you only have one entry in the window because you have only have one schedule.

tdenson
03-06-2010, 01:34 PM
Well, no: you only have one entry in the window because you have only have one schedule.

Well that worries me, why have I only got one log file then.
There is something very unintuitive about all this. I have been using SD for 3 years and in all that time I have never mastered scheduled copies. They always seem to fail even when I can run the same source and destination manually. This is true on 3 different machines I manage. I have given up trying to schedule and always run manually. Am seriously considering going elsewhere to find a product I can get to work.

dnanian
03-06-2010, 01:57 PM
You haven't really told me what's failing (the other logs, as I tried to say, are in the Logs folder you'll see when you Cmd+click the title bar; if there are no other logs, the problem occurs before we even get to run).

Nick
03-06-2010, 02:26 PM
Well that worries me, why have I only got one log file then.
There is something very unintuitive about all this. I have been using SD for 3 years and in all that time I have never mastered scheduled copies. They always seem to fail even when I can run the same source and destination manually. This is true on 3 different machines I manage. I have given up trying to schedule and always run manually. Am seriously considering going elsewhere to find a product I can get to work.

I would agree with you that SD! isn't as easy to use as it could be. Despite the obvious effort put in to writing the User's Guide, it's not at all easy to figure out how to use SD!, beyond the basics. IMO, this is in large part due to what appears to be a shortcoming in a lot of design efforts: The Guide appears to have been written by someone who has a deep understanding of the product, but a much less better understanding of the more-general user audience—that is, an understanding of the perspective of the less technically experienced user. Imagine if you will trying to read an instruction manual for a kitchen appliance that was written by the engineer who designed the appliance and who assumes that the average home consumer understands—much less cares about—BTU, watts, grounding, RFI, and other technical considerations of the appliance's design. To the engineer, these terms and concepts may appear to be basic enough to throw around when discussing and explaining the appliance's operation; but for most consumers, that is a baseline level of understanding and familiarity that far exceeds theirs.

Having said that, I will quickly follow up with two comments;

1. This forum, and Dave's constant presence, more than compensate for any User's Guide shortcomings or unintuitive product usability: I have yet to experience user support that approaches the level provided here.

2. You will not likely find a competing product that is better—i.e., more effective, more reliable, less invasive, more current, and easier to use (yes, even if only at the most-basic level)—than SD!.

tdenson
03-06-2010, 02:45 PM
I would agree with you that SD! isn't as easy to use as it could be. Despite the obvious effort put in to writing the User's Guide, it's not at all easy to figure out how to use SD!, beyond the basics. IMO, this is in large part due to what appears to be a shortcoming in a lot of design efforts: The Guide appears to have been written by someone who has a deep understanding of the product, but a much less better understanding of the more-general user audience—that is, an understanding of the perspective of the less technically experienced user. Imagine if you will trying to read an instruction manual for a kitchen appliance that was written by the engineer who designed the appliance and who assumes that the average home consumer understands—much less cares about—BTU, watts, grounding, RFI, and other technical considerations of the appliance's design. To the engineer, these terms and concepts may appear to be basic enough to throw around when discussing and explaining the appliance's operation; but for most consumers, that is a baseline level of understanding and familiarity that far exceeds theirs.

Having said that, I will quickly follow up with two comments;

1. This forum, and Dave's constant presence, more than compensate for any User's Guide shortcomings or unintuitive product usability: I have yet to experience user support that approaches the level provided here.

2. You will not likely find a competing product that is better—i.e., more effective, more reliable, less invasive, more current, and easier to use (yes, even if only at the most-basic level)—than SD!.

Thanks for that reassurance

tdenson
03-06-2010, 02:50 PM
You haven't really told me what's failing (the other logs, as I tried to say, are in the Logs folder you'll see when you Cmd+click the title bar; if there are no other logs, the problem occurs before we even get to run).

Currently, the only line on the scheduled copy window is red and there are no log files.

(few minutes later)
I have just set a scheduled backup to run two minutes hence, which it did successfully. But I have done this before - every time I watch a backup it works, however when unattended it never seems to happen. I got to wondering whether it's because the machine might be asleep, so I set another one to go in a couple of minutes and put the machine to sleep. OK, it didn't wake up the machine but as soon as I woke the machine up manually SD then ran it's scheduled backup successfully. All I know is whenever I try and do the same in the middle of the night it fails every time - and as I have said before on 3 different machines in 3 different physical locations.
I will persevere.

tdenson
03-06-2010, 02:58 PM
Incidentally, having run two scheduled backups in the last few minutes I still have only one log file. What I did was to edit the scheduler entry to change the time of the backup - would this cause all previous log files for that entry to be deleted ?

dnanian
03-06-2010, 05:14 PM
As is explained in the "Scheduling" section of the User's Guide, the backup will not run if the Mac is asleep. You would need to set a wake event for one minute before the scheduled copy time.

As far as old logs go, it's quite possible that changing the time will recreate the settings package and thus clear the old logs, yes.

tdenson
03-06-2010, 05:43 PM
As is explained in the "Scheduling" section of the User's Guide, the backup will not run if the Mac is asleep. You would need to set a wake event for one minute before the scheduled copy time.

As far as old logs go, it's quite possible that changing the time will recreate the settings package and thus clear the old logs, yes.

But you miss my point. I said that the backup worked fine automatically after the machine was woken up without any intervention from me, but I'm not seeing that in practice.

dnanian
03-06-2010, 05:51 PM
I understand you did say that, but I can't see how that could have happened, barring some event I'm unaware of: the backups will not occur if the mac is asleep, nor will they 'catch up' and run when the Mac wakes (unless they had started before the sleep, and then they'd continue at wake).

tdenson
03-06-2010, 07:09 PM
I've just checked another of my machines and I think it is actually doing a daily backup successfully, however I can only see the one log file for the most recent backup. What am I missing with these log files ?

dnanian
03-06-2010, 07:14 PM
Again, to see the other logs, should you need to see others, Cmd+Click on the title of a log and choose the logs folder... that will show the other runs of this settings 'file'.

tdenson
03-06-2010, 07:22 PM
Again, to see the other logs, should you need to see others, Cmd+Click on the title of a log and choose the logs folder... that will show the other runs of this settings 'file'.

Finally, I see how to get other logs. However, it is not at all intuitive to have to drill down into one particular log to then get access to other logs. This is where I have been struggling. I've been cmd clicking the scheduled copies window instead, and I think this is also where Nick previously in this thread was having the same misconception.

Nick
03-06-2010, 09:22 PM
Again, to see the other logs, ... Cmd+Click on the title of a log and choose the logs folder... that will show the other runs of this settings 'file'.

Right-clicking (Cntrl+Click) works as well.

sjk
03-06-2010, 09:42 PM
I suspect/hope "improved logfile management" is already on the list for possible future SD! releases. Access to anything but the current logfile requires more tech-savviness than I'm sure plenty of customers have.

Nick
03-06-2010, 09:47 PM
Finally, I see how to get other logs. However, it is not at all intuitive to have to drill down into one particular log to then get access to other logs. This is where I have been struggling. I've been cmd clicking the scheduled copies window instead, and I think this is also where Nick previously in this thread was having the same misconception.

Yes indeed, it's not at all intuitively obvious. The difficulty is (I believe) that while this way of gaining access to the location logically follows from the application's technical design, it's not a user-friendly approach. IOW, another layer (GUI) between the app and the user, designed from the user's perspective, would be helpful.

dnanian
03-07-2010, 12:36 AM
No, not really. In general, most users don't need to get at these other logs, which are usually used for diagnostic purposes. A non-technical user doesn't generally need to review them.

tdenson
03-07-2010, 04:57 AM
No, not really. In general, most users don't need to get at these other logs, which are usually used for diagnostic purposes. A non-technical user doesn't generally need to review them.

It seems to me that for unattended backups some form of easy access to the log history is pretty fundamental. I want to know that it's reliable and has been working every day. An alternative is to send me an email on completion - can it do that ?

sjk
03-07-2010, 05:55 AM
It seems to me that for unattended backups some form of easy access to the log history is pretty fundamental. I want to know that it's reliable and has been working every day.
Regardless of reasons (but just knowing how much data was copied is one of mine) I'd still prefer more convenient access to logfile history. Also, a single logfile summarizing basic statistics after each copy… or easier access to those stats, e.g. through AppleScript variable, to simplify rolling your own summary logfile.

An alternative is to send me an email on completion - can it do that ?
I vaguely remember seeing post-completion scripts, maybe using Growl, to do it.

dnanian
03-07-2010, 09:19 AM
Yes: just install Growl (http://www.growl.info). We support that, and it can be used to send you a notification of success or failure. Those notifications can take many forms, including email, small 'notification' windows, etc.