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View Full Version : Another sneak peek: Backup Notification with Growl!


dnanian
06-02-2006, 02:36 PM
Attached is a small preview from the next version of SuperDuper: a public beta of the new "schedule driver" that contains support for Growl (http://www.growl.info).

With this, you'll be able to be notified on two events: Scheduled Copy Succeeds and Scheduled Copy Fails. Any normal Growl notification type will work, including across-network and email.

If Growl is not installed, nothing untoward should happen.

A small ZIP of the script is attached to this message. Unzip it, and then place the file inside SuperDuper!'s Resources folder, in the application bundle, replacing the one that's already there.

To get there, control-click on SuperDuper!, and choose "Show Package Contents". Then, navigate to Contents, then Resources, and there you'll find the existing "Copy Job Script.template".

Replace that with this one, and then (this is important) re-create your scheduled copies.

Once the script has run once, you should see SuperDuper in the list of applications available in the Growl preference pane. Select that, and you will see the two notification types.

Let me know what you think!

Pendragon
06-02-2006, 06:59 PM
"If Growl is not installed, nothing untoward should happen."

But does that mean nothing will happen if Growl is not installed? That is, for this new capability to work, must Growl (first) be installed?

dnanian
06-02-2006, 07:00 PM
That's right: you have to install Growl, or nothing will happen. (But nothing bad will happen -- you just won't get notifications.)

Pendragon
06-03-2006, 09:11 AM
Thanks Dave!

dnanian
06-03-2006, 09:12 AM
No problem. Growl's an easy install (just double-click the preference pane in its disk image), and quite unobtrusive: I think you'll find it helpful.

DarkskyZ
06-05-2006, 01:54 PM
Once the script has run once, you should see SuperDuper in the list of applications available in the Growl preference pane. Select that, and you will see the two notification types.

The script must run scheduled and not manually so that Super Duper! registers in Growl.

DarkskyZ

dnanian
06-05-2006, 01:57 PM
That's right (for the sneak peek)...

DarkskyZ
06-05-2006, 02:58 PM
I had a hard time figuring it so it probably worth the notice (for the sneak peek ;)).

edoates
06-14-2006, 01:55 PM
Now that it is in 2.1.2 (Thanks!), I've used it for email notifications. GREAT. With auto-mounting of backup drives and with email notifications, I no longer need my (maybe not so) cleverly written scripts. Hooray!

Question: for the "copy failed" notifications, will I get that for ANY failure which a scheduled SD detects: repair permissions fail, I/O error, can't mount, etc.?

I really want this to be kind of mindless, so that don't have to scan a log everyday, but just if I get an error notification.

Ed

dnanian
06-14-2006, 02:02 PM
Yes, you should get a notification for any kind of failure.

msadesign
07-13-2006, 09:24 AM
Geez, Dave, all I want is a simple, abbreviated log…

Everytime I start the app I have to wonder what ran, and when. Growl is fine, I suppose. But why not just a damn log without listing every copied file?

Something like 'ran Script A at 900 AM and all is well'?

Michael

dnanian
07-13-2006, 10:09 AM
But that's exactly what Growl will give you. Various kinds of flexible notifications, sticky and not...

msadesign
07-13-2006, 01:56 PM
no it won't.

It flashes a notification then goes away [at least that is how it works with CyberDuck, Mail, etc]. Growl is a fine little app, to be sure. But we depend on your software and do not want to guess about when the backups are made, period, and need a robust and simple log.

I want to open the application and see a log window.

Michael

dnanian
07-13-2006, 02:05 PM
Michael --

Just select the "Sticky" checkbox in the Growl preferences for the SuperDuper! notification(s) you want. Then, they won't go away.

Alternatively, you can change the notification type to mail.

We'll consider additional log improvements for the future. But I think you can get what you want out of the Growl support by simply changing the options a bit.

msadesign
07-13-2006, 07:30 PM
David,

No, I won't get what I need, or what anybody serious about backing up needs, and here is why:

This product is one of two, really, that give you a clone-backup. As such, the product has a natural home in the front line of data management, and I think depending on a third party for a simple logging function is second-rate, at best.

SuperDuper is a very robust application. It has a clever interface that has made some of the maddening choices involving backups really very simple.

It has a few seriou rough edges, mostly, in my view, from apparent developer-desire to make the thing friendlier, but sometimes an experienced manager will be left wondering exactly what it is doing.

An example of this is the default window, from which one can select the source and target, but from which cannot select scripts. Another example is the fact that you can tell SD to do something that is exactly the same thing as a pre-defined script, but you are not alerted to this fact. Taken together, these two user experiences mean that every time I use the app I have to re-read What's Going to Happen, making sure I am running my script; and I also have to re-confirm the choices. This is a waste of time and more significantly it introduces a possiblity of error. Error is not allowed.

Additionally, every time I start the app I wonder to myself: has the most recent script run? have all of the scripts run? And there is no way to tell. The default Log is far too verbose for this simple and essential function. It needs a summary of each thing that SD is doing.

And now, with the Growl solution, I need more window clutter to tell me- what? " SD Copy Succeeded- Copy of A to B was successful" is what Growl says. What does this mean in a serious environment where scripts are thoughtfully crafted? nothing.

What is needed is: 'Script A was completed at 5 PM today'. This must be in the SD Log window. It needs to identify the script that I made because then I know it did what I need: it backed up my data.

And I definately do not want Growl windows cluttering things, with the chance of an errant click dismissing an important message. All Growl does is add a convenient but untrustworty notification. And what if there is a problem with Growl, or with the mechanism that SD uses to talk to Growl? How will I know what has happened?

I use the software. I paid for the software. I recommend the software. I just don't fully trust it, for the above UI reasons. Call me crazy. But we back up stuff to be absolutely sure, right?

Respectfully,

Michael

dnanian
07-13-2006, 07:48 PM
Thanks for your feedback, Michael.

I really don't know what you mean by "can't choose scripts". The script can be picked in the 3rd pop up. You need not confirm it in WGTH? -- it's right there in the pop-up.

Perhaps I don't understand what you mean.

kbradnam
07-27-2006, 02:04 PM
Hi David,

I've installed Growl but I still can't see an easy way to have reports emailed to me (or just whether the backup was successful or not). Should I be able to set this up via the Growl system preferences?

Thanks,

Keith

P.S. I tried searching the SuperDuper help but there was no mention of Growl

dnanian
07-27-2006, 02:13 PM
Hi, Keith. No, it only tells you if the backup worked or not. There's no option to mail a report at present.

(And, you're right, I haven't updated the manual to talk about Growl yet -- will hopefully get to it next big dot-release.)

edoates
07-28-2006, 11:38 PM
What I did prior to growl (which can not only put something on the screen or send email, but can append to a log of your choosing), was to include logging in all of my scripts: I just appended lines to a plain text file so it looked like this:

2006-07-28 19:13:47 Script A started
2006-07-28 19:13:48 Volume x mounted
2006-07-28 19:13:49 SuperDuper Started
2006-07-28 19:14:32 SuperDuper completed with no error
2006-07-28 19:14:33 Volume x unmounted
<>

Each log series ended with an extra line for readability; on errors, the "completed" entry was had ***** appended clueing me to examine the SD logs.

Now, I use Growl logging (and mailme) to accomplish the same goal which is satisfactory for me. A Growl log entry looks like this:

2006-07-28 01:30:03 -0700 SuperDuper! registered
2006-07-28 01:30:03 -0700 Growl: Application re-registered (SuperDuper! registered) - Priority 0
2006-07-28 01:40:15 -0700 SuperDuper!: SuperDuper! Copy Succeeded (Copy of Eds Office to Eds Office Backups was successful.) - Priority 0

Ed

essexhill
08-15-2006, 11:06 AM
David,

No, I won't get what I need, or what anybody serious about backing up needs, and here is why:

This product is one of two, really, that give you a clone-backup. As such, the product has a natural home in the front line of data management, and I think depending on a third party for a simple logging function is second-rate, at best.

SuperDuper is a very robust application. It has a clever interface that has made some of the maddening choices involving backups really very simple.

It has a few seriou rough edges, mostly, in my view, from apparent developer-desire to make the thing friendlier, but sometimes an experienced manager will be left wondering exactly what it is doing.

An example of this is the default window, from which one can select the source and target, but from which cannot select scripts. Another example is the fact that you can tell SD to do something that is exactly the same thing as a pre-defined script, but you are not alerted to this fact. Taken together, these two user experiences mean that every time I use the app I have to re-read What's Going to Happen, making sure I am running my script; and I also have to re-confirm the choices. This is a waste of time and more significantly it introduces a possiblity of error. Error is not allowed.

Additionally, every time I start the app I wonder to myself: has the most recent script run? have all of the scripts run? And there is no way to tell. The default Log is far too verbose for this simple and essential function. It needs a summary of each thing that SD is doing.

And now, with the Growl solution, I need more window clutter to tell me- what? " SD Copy Succeeded- Copy of A to B was successful" is what Growl says. What does this mean in a serious environment where scripts are thoughtfully crafted? nothing.

What is needed is: 'Script A was completed at 5 PM today'. This must be in the SD Log window. It needs to identify the script that I made because then I know it did what I need: it backed up my data.

And I definately do not want Growl windows cluttering things, with the chance of an errant click dismissing an important message. All Growl does is add a convenient but untrustworty notification. And what if there is a problem with Growl, or with the mechanism that SD uses to talk to Growl? How will I know what has happened?

I use the software. I paid for the software. I recommend the software. I just don't fully trust it, for the above UI reasons. Call me crazy. But we back up stuff to be absolutely sure, right?

Respectfully,

Michael

I'm with Michael on this one. Surely it could easily appear in the drop down menu that tells SD what to do once is has finished. Personally I want only to receive an email telling me what happened and when. What I don't want is to have to use another piece of software to do this. SD needs to be confident enough to give this information all by itself, with no other 3rd party hand-holding. It is tricky enough hoping/relying on clients not to tit about with these things whilst you are not sitting at their desks!

ceh

dnanian
08-15-2006, 11:20 AM
Thank you for your suggestion and feedback.

jonathanpberger
08-17-2006, 11:13 PM
Growl is a robust notification system that's used by a large number of Mac power users. There's every reason to expect that 1) it'll continue to be dvlped and supported, and 2) many if not most SD users already employ Growl.

I'd way rather have David spend his limited resources developing Super Duper as a backup utility, and focusing on keeping my data safe. Duplicating work on notification isn't a good use of his time. Its way better to hook SD into growl, and then let the Growl guys develop the notification utility.

MacMedix
08-29-2006, 04:19 AM
Growl requires Tiger or higher. I'm on Panther. So Growl is not useful to me at this time. I would very much like to see SuperDuper have a simple log with simple entries such as:

Auto Launched SuperDuper at 11pm,
Script A ran at [time] [date], successful.
or
Manual launch of SuperDuper 3pm
Smart Update of [source] to [target] was successful. Duration 21 minutes.

I have recommended SuperDuper to few hundred people(really!), and I have actively bought or leaned on at least dozen of my clients to buy SuperDuper. I do this because it's very well done, reliable and easy for people to use. I'm especially happy that SD can mount unmounted FW drives to back up to, then put them away. This is wonderful, and keeps people out of trouble.

I REALLY NEED an email notification that their back up was successful or not. So many people don't deal well with backups, and I'm really fighting for their futures. SD is an important tool in that regard. It would be so much more complete with a 1st party email notification built in. I really don't want to depend on anything external. I just want it all in one place. It's too important to farm out.

I would like to bring a really easy email sending tool to your attention. It is freeware and it's very small and very useful!
Check out the mail-framework called pantomime, that supports PLAIN, LOGIN and CRAM-MD5 for authenticated mail sending. You will find an excellent implementation of it built into Julian Mayor's freeware SMARTReporter (606k). I feel certain that he would willingly share his tricks in integrating pantomime into SD!. He was kind enough to change his SMartReporter program to support authenticated sending through my email server of choice, and to also allow sending to multiple email addresses. Both extremely useful features. Julian has done a fantastic job with this, and I think you'll also be impressed with his clean and simple user interface.

Adding a 100% reliable email notification (that works in Panther & above) is my #1 feature request!!!
http://www.collaboration-world.com/pantomime
http://homepage.mac.com/julianmayer/

I hope this helps, and I hope you can add the built in email sending using Pantomime.
Many Thanks!
Dave Nathanson
Mac Medix

dnanian
08-29-2006, 06:32 PM
Growl runs on 10.3.9 or higher, Dave.

MacMedix
08-29-2006, 08:52 PM
Growl runs on 10.3.9 or higher, Dave
Oh, so it does. That's better. Sorry about that- I thought I remembered it differently. But that doesn't change the rest of my position about needing a robust email notification built into SuperDuper.

From what I read of the docs, Growl is not quite going to be useful for me. Recall that I want to receive email notifications from other non-local Macs to be sure they have been backed up successfully (or not).

After reading the Growl forums & documentation, I can see that we really need something just a little bit more configurable than Growl currently offers. Growl apparently only allows smtp sending via port 25. (an often blocked port). I need authenticated sending, I need a choice of port number, and Ideally the choice of using the internal SMTP server, AppleMessage Framework, or an external smtp server. (Actually I am ok with just an external SMTP server but other people's situation will be different). I am impressed with the capability and clean interface of Julian Mayer's freeware "SMARTReporter (http://homepage.mac.com/julianmayer/)" which implements the free mail framework of Pantomime (http://www.collaboration-world.com/pantomime).

I can't trust people not to mess with their AppleMail settings. I want a single place to go to set up the email notification, and I really need it to not be affected by external updates. I feel strongly that the correct place for this is built into SuperDuper. However, if Growl could offer the robust configurablity that the 600k SMARTReporter does, than I would totally consider that as well.

Take a look at these SMARTReporter screen shots below. It's a clean interface and easy to use. There is a "send test email" function. You may send notifications to multiple email addresses. You may configure the report message. (Important for sending to SMS or pagers which truncate). The whole program including this mail sending function is only 600k. Seems like it might be a relatively easy way to implement robust email reporting. Thanks for listening.

I hope this helps.
Best,
Dave Nathanson

http://macmedix.info/shirtPocket/2emailsettings.gif

http://macmedix.info/shirtPocket/1prefs.gif


http://macmedix.info/shirtPocket/3MsgSettings.gif

bammi
09-22-2006, 10:04 PM
Thanks for the growl feature. I am using the latest SD, under 10.4.7 both ppc and on an intel with the same odd behavior. If i run SD by hand, i get a email notification from growl, this is consistent (and proves that my setup/configuration is fine). When my scheduled SD run finishes, i get no growl email. I know my scheduled run happened because i can see it in the logs. There has to be a good explaination of this. (i suspect that the scheduled job is running as a different user ID than me).

Wishes
-- growl reports status of job completion
-- growl email contains the last log.

thanks
Jwahar Bammi
________
mac game (http://macgame.org)

dnanian
09-22-2006, 10:44 PM
The Growl feature for scheduled runs was added in the script, so if your schedule was created earlier it won't trigger growls. So, delete and recreate your scheduled copies.

Then, make sure the scheduled copy notifications are turned on (there are separate notifications for scheduled and manual runs).

Hope that helps!

ministry
10-16-2006, 06:34 AM
Hi!

Still like to see an answer from one of the developers on the posts of Michael and MacMedix about email notification and the 'logfile showing' feature.
thnx!

dnanian
10-16-2006, 11:35 AM
We don't preannounce things, ministry, sorry. Not commenting doesn't mean that we either approve or disapprove of the suggestion, though.

I understand that this is something that a small percentage of our users want, though, and appreciate the comments.

ministry
10-16-2006, 01:13 PM
Don't get me wrong, Still like SD big time! Didn't want an announcement of some kind, just curious to know how you see these things during development or when you are behind the drawing board.
But it's too bad that it is only a small percentage. ;)

macWish
10-17-2006, 09:35 AM
I have been trying backup notification with Growl. I deleted the old scheduled backup and created new one. In the Growl General Preference Pane, if I enable Logging, then Growl reports in the very long Console Log that the sheduled backup occurred suessfully. However, in the Growl Appliation Preference Pane, if I switch the SuperDuper Sticky preferences to Fixed (checkmark), the notifications do not stick.

I run the scheduled backup in middle of night and would like to see the Growl backup notification when I start up in the morning. However, SuperDuper, after running the the sheduled backup, seems to convert the Growl Sticky preference back to the default setting (Mixed) and the notifications do not remain on the screen after SuperDuper quits. Should I run backup without having SuperDuper quit?

Also, how does one email a Growl notification?

dnanian
10-17-2006, 12:51 PM
I'm not having problems with notification becoming unsticky, macWish -- weird. Current SD? Did you customize the script template, perhaps?

You can email a growl notification by using the "mail" notification type.

macWish
10-17-2006, 06:27 PM
I'm not having problems with notification becoming unsticky, macWish -- weird. Current SD? Did you customize the script template, perhaps?

You can email a growl notification by using the "mail" notification type.

I am using current SD - version 2.1.3. My script is not customized, merely backup users with smartupdate. There is about a 8-10 hour interval between when the scheduled backup runs and when I activate my iMac in the morning. It does not sleep during the interval.

Since author of Growl did not include a script for Eudora, I suspect the latter is not Growl compliant. At least, I could not figure out how to modify the mail notification script.

dnanian
10-17-2006, 06:29 PM
Even if you use Eudora, if Growl depends on Mail, you can set mail up appropriately for your account (including outbound mail), but simply not run/use it... then it'll be able to send mail to you.

macWish
10-17-2006, 07:03 PM
I set Mail up as directed and will let you know what happens with next scheduled backup.

macWish
10-17-2006, 09:04 PM
Checked it twice with freshly sheduled copies. Console logs that SuperDuper completes scheduled copy successfully, but neither Growl notifications nor email appear. Strange.

dnanian
10-17-2006, 09:07 PM
You're sure you've turned on the Scheduled copy notifications and not the Manual ones?

macWish
10-17-2006, 10:39 PM
They are both turned on. Your question imples the Manual ones be turned off, which I will do and try again.
In case it helps, here is the Console Log relating to latest scheduled copy:

2006-10-17 21:30:02.405 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:30:02 -0400 SuperDuper! registered
2006-10-17 21:30:02.434 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:30:02 -0400 Growl: Application re-registered (SuperDuper! registered) - Priority 0
FinderPop-20000: Patching 'SuperDuper!' 0:66a0001 (CF)
2006-10-17 21:30:05.341 SuperDuper![8230] Can't open input server /Users/ronaldgold/Library/InputManagers/Smart Crash Reports
2006-10-17 21:30:05.526 SuperDuper![8230] PluginLoader: Not loading GrowlCamino. [This is not an error; do not report it.]
2006-10-17 21:30:05.527 SuperDuper![8230] PluginLoader: Not loading UnifyCamino. [This is not an error; do not report it.]
2006-10-17 21:30:06.954 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:30:06 -0400 SuperDuper! registered
2006-10-17 21:30:07.004 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:30:07 -0400 Growl: Application re-registered (SuperDuper! registered) - Priority 0
2006-10-17 21:30:53.595 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:30:53 -0400 GrowlCamino: Page Loaded (MacUpdate: Macintosh Software & Game Downloads) - Priority 0
Oct 17 21:31:00 Ronald-Golds-Computer /Applications/Camino.app/Contents/MacOS/Camino: CMSCreateDataProviderOrGetInfo : Invalid colorspace type
2006-10-17 21:31:02.389 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:31:02 -0400 GrowlCamino: Page Loaded (MacInTouch: timely news and tips about the Apple Macintosh) - Priority 0
2006-10-17 21:31:12.356 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:31:12 -0400 GrowlCamino: Page Loaded (Daring Fireball: Linked List) - Priority 0
2006-10-17 21:31:16.611 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:31:16 -0400 GrowlCamino: Page Loaded (Applelinks - The Ultimate Macintosh Website) - Priority 0
2006-10-17 21:31:18.786 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:31:18 -0400 GrowlCamino: Page Loaded (macosxhints.com - OS X tips and tricks!) - Priority 0
2006-10-17 21:31:18.993 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:31:18 -0400 GrowlCamino: Page Loaded (MacFixIt - Troubleshooting Solutions for the Macintosh) - Priority 0
2006-10-17 21:31:25.024 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:31:25 -0400 GrowlCamino: Page Loaded (The Mac Night Owl) - Priority 0
2006-10-17 21:31:27.771 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:31:27 -0400 GrowlCamino: Page Loaded (Ars Technica) - Priority 0
2006-10-17 21:31:30.336 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:31:30 -0400 GrowlCamino: Page Loaded (digg / All) - Priority 0
2006-10-17 21:31:38.891 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:31:38 -0400 GrowlCamino: Page Loaded (The Unofficial Apple Weblog (TUAW)) - Priority 0
2006-10-17 21:36:00.766 GrowlHelperApp[167] 2006-10-17 21:36:00 -0400 SuperDuper!: SuperDuper! backup succeeded (Backup of MacIntosh HD to Backup was successful.) - Priority 0

dnanian
10-17-2006, 10:55 PM
What seems rather strange is that I don't get any of this "re-registered" stuff. And that backup success looks like a non-scheduled notification...

macWish
10-18-2006, 07:58 AM
Well things are even more strange than I thought.
Testing Growl again, I opened the Growl Pref Pane, selected SuperDuper and made sure than only the Scheduled Backup Notifications were selected, that the non-scheduled notifications, were deselected, and that the Sheduled notifications were sticky.
Then I set up a new backup schedule.
Because the SD preferences on Growl Pref Pane seemed to be reverting to default settings spontaneously whenever a scheduled backup was run, this time as soon as SuperDuper launched for a scheduled backup, I opened the Growl Pref Pane again. All of the settings for SuperDuper had reverted to default, i.e. all were selected, not just the scheduled notifications.

I don't have difficulty with any of the other growl settings for Camino, iGet, SpamSieve, or PageSender. Perhaps the SD Growl is conflicting with one of the other applications.

Any way, since I have not had any problems with scheduled backups, I removed the growl template from SuperDuper and will wait for final version to try it again.

Do you want me to try anything else?

dnanian
10-18-2006, 10:05 AM
OK, this is what's wrong, macWish. The Growl function was built into SD! a number of releases ago. Please re-download a fresh copy of SuperDuper! and recreate your schedules without messing around with the template.

The built-in template should work fine with Growl...

macWish
10-18-2006, 12:39 PM
Problems solved.
1. Growl function works with scheduled backup;
2. Sticky problem - had to go to Growl forum to learn that certain notification displays do not support Stickyness - bezel, the default display, does not support sticky!. So changed SD notifications to Plain display and now sticky works.

If Growl was built into SD! a number of releases ago, why no news of it prior to this Thread? Or did I miss something in update readme?

dnanian
10-18-2006, 12:42 PM
Back in June this was a sneak-peek into the next version of SD!, which was released some time ago... :)

macWish
10-18-2006, 12:53 PM
My fault then for not checking this forum regularly. But since SD! was working so well, and always has, I didn't notice the date on the start of this thread.

If only Growl documentation were as good as SD!'s!!

Gibbor
11-23-2007, 07:59 PM
I had never heard of Growl before this, so I know nothing about it. My main question is whether it is a hack that messes with the system files. OS 10.5, which is still pretty unstable anyway, seems to be very unstable whenever someone pokes under the hood. Unsanity's Application Enhancer apparently caused a lot of people a lot of problems. Will Growl do something like that? :confused:

dnanian
11-23-2007, 08:02 PM
Growl is a very simple application that doesn't "hack" at all.

patrickm
01-24-2008, 12:37 AM
David,

An example of this is the default window, from which one can select the source and target, but from which cannot select scripts. Another example is the fact that you can tell SD to do something that is exactly the same thing as a pre-defined script, but you are not alerted to this fact. Taken together, these two user experiences mean that every time I use the app I have to re-read What's Going to Happen, making sure I am running my script; and I also have to re-confirm the choices. This is a waste of time and more significantly it introduces a possiblity of error. Error is not allowed.

Michael

So what you're really saying is you make the necessary settings you want and then save it calling, let's say, "My Backup" and it shows in the main window. That confirms you're using the exact same settings you used last time instead of going through every setting again to double check if it's right. Now that's an excellent idea. I'm all for that.

patrickm

dnanian
01-24-2008, 09:39 AM
That's available in SuperDuper! already, patrickm...