A few days ago, we were happy to get a workaround for the bug mentioned in a previous post, so we went about implementing and testing—and things were working quite well.
Unfortunately, we've found a case where the workaround doesn't, um, work. I think I have a way of dealing with it, and so we're going to implement Workaround Part IV: The Reworkening and run it through the wringer.
Again.
These tests are really time consuming, as you might guess: it can take eight hours to rebuild a complex-case volume (so I try to keep one building while another is testing), and then more hours to run the test. I can't begin to tell you how frustrating it is to have a set of simple tests work and then find that the thing we found rearing its ugly head again in another (more complex) scenario that can (and did) happen in "real life".
This is why we don't just implement a fix and release, of course: we want to ensure it works before we toss it out there, and so we smoke test, test internally and then—if internal tests are OK—test externally, every time. We always are hoping for green lights at every stage. Sometimes, 99% of the way there, you get red. Then, the failure needs to be investigated, understood, reproduced...
Anyway, we'll leave that between me and my ulcer. If my new idea works, this will hopefully only delay things a few days, which will be plenty of time to fill the comments with complaints of our laziness, incompetence, lack of communication and general suckitude. Have at it!
Note: I've had to turn comments off for a little while because the subscriptions to comments are overloading my outbound servers (every time someone posts something, it's sent to the 200 people above their post), causing delays for regular support mail, etc. You can still review existing comments by clicking the title of this post. I'll turn them back on after the backlog clears. Sorry for any inconvenience: it's not that I don't want to hear what you want to say...
21 Jan 2008 at 09:11 am | #
Thanks for the update, Dave. I have tremendous respect for your desire to get things right before releasing the product. I’ve worked for some of the industry’s largest software companies and too many times I’ve seen a product rushed out the door with the “we’ll fix it later” attitude. Your dedication is appreciated.
21 Jan 2008 at 09:17 am | #
Hi Dave,
after 97 comments a new thread with a lot of room for new fun!
Thanks for informing us about the new problems.
BTW Is it right, that till now the only secure method of cloning my macbook drive is to boot from another 10.5 volume (e.g. DVD) and then use the Apple Disk Utility.app?
Greetings from Germany and good luck with your new “workaround”
Jürgen
21 Jan 2008 at 09:25 am | #
Thanks, Dave. I’ll say it again ... you’re doing the right thing ... ignore the whiners.
I just wish more software developers had your level of laziness, incompetence, lack of communication and general suckitude.
21 Jan 2008 at 09:28 am | #
Dave -
Yeah, kinda of a heavy sigh. I want my SD!, but I don’t want it to break anything, so you guys keep at it, and I"ll grit my teeth, too. I know you get a lot of whining from those with entitlement issues, but you always will. Once they have the finished product in their hands, they’ll shut up and move on to some other personal crisis.
As long as I know progress is being made, than I’m a happy camper!
21 Jan 2008 at 09:28 am | #
Your laziness, incompetence, lack of communication and general suckitude are now legendary. Blah blah Evil blah blah whine whine .
Seriously, I’m glad you guys are beating the hell of this so we don’t have to worry. There are alternative backup methods available but I don’t have the confidence in them that I have in SuperDuper. So I’m still running Tiger on all but a couple of test boxes. I’d rather wait for a backup solution that I can trust.
21 Jan 2008 at 09:35 am | #
No rush! We’re patient. Don’t allow the pressure beast cast a shadow on your programmer day
It’s ready when it’s ready.
Software is a tricky thing - at any given point of the development process it always has bugs. The only difference is that at some point we’re less aware of them. This is kind of frustrating. However at some point the comparison between the relative bugginess of the currently used and shipped version to the relative (lack of?) bugginess of the upcoming internal version makes us decide to release, and then everything repeats itself. Ah well…
21 Jan 2008 at 09:35 am | #
I commend your decision to post an update. Not sure about the sarcasm though. People do have reason to be frustrated… That’s why regular updates are important - and appreciated.
21 Jan 2008 at 09:50 am | #
@LSF: not sarcastic—just pre-acknowledging the inevitable, hopefully with a smile.
@jb: that’ll certainly work: low-level copying like that avoids the kinds of things we’re seeing, because it doesn’t really work with the file system structures at all.
21 Jan 2008 at 10:11 am | #
I, for one, appreciate your thoroughness and conscientiousness when it comes to getting SD for Leopard right the first time. I’m on Time Machine for the time being on my main machine, but the other two Macs on the network are not being backed up, but their data is not changing much so old backups are sufficient.
Thus, my need for Leopard-compatible SD is not urgent, but I’d like it some time in the not-too-distant future. I would like to chime in my advice for the future, though: When Apple goes for the next big cat (my bet for the new name is Garfield), please get in on those developer previews that let you in on the guts of the system before it pounces on the public. With all the talk of ZFS, it would behoove you to bone up on that so that Garfield-compatible SD can be available on its release date. I’m sure you are involved in ADC, but let Apple know how important your product is and why you need advanced notice of file system changes.
That and four bucks will get you a cup of coffee!
21 Jan 2008 at 10:17 am | #
Sigh...I’ve been telling people that you will soon be Leopard compatible and they should wait to upgrade. I have taken my own advice, but I eagerly scan VT every day to see if you’re there. After your post last week, I though for sure I’d see you today, but the others are right, keep at it till it’s perfect, it’s a lot easier for people to complain that your haven’t released the new version than it would be to have to deal with a buggy version that hoses people’s systems!
21 Jan 2008 at 10:18 am | #
Echo the others. I’ve been in the “surely it’ll just be one more day” situation myself, and every time, I wish my clients had just said “take your time, make it solid.” So: take your time, make it solid! I’m looking forward to the warm blanket that is bootable clones, but Time Machine has been keeping me safe in the meantime.
I also respect your continued updates. I know how much it sucks to have nothing to deliver but “bad” news. My first instinct is to retreat into a hole and not delivery any bad news updates, which frustrates the heck out of clients. Your continued updates give me (and it sounds like, others) full confidence that you guys are working on this stuff as hard as you can.
And please don’t kill yourself over this! Get rest, get your head clear, and we’ll all be fine.
21 Jan 2008 at 10:26 am | #
Do you really have an ulcer, Dave? Please don’t take care of your software users at your own expense. Please, take the best care of yourself you can. I’ll wait to upgrade to Leopard without a single whine.
21 Jan 2008 at 11:04 am | #
The frustration of not having the program ready is overcome by the fact that when it is ready, it’s really ready. I would be more frustrated if I had a shoddy product in my hands mangling my data.
Thanks for the great work and good luck on getting it out the door. I will be one of many eagerly awaiting it.
Heard you mentioned by Merlin Mann during a TUAWS interview. Congrats!
21 Jan 2008 at 11:39 am | #
"I commend your decision to post an update. Not sure about the sarcasm though. People do have reason to be frustrated… That’s why regular updates are important - and appreciated.”
In what universe do people have a ‘right’ to be frustrated?
When he had news to update us on, he updated us on it. Frankly, until he knows whether this new workaround has succeeded or failed, I don’t care if he lets us in on it.
Just because you chose to upgrade to Leopard before Shirt Pocket released a Leopard compatible version of Superduper doesn’t mean that Shirt Pocket is responsible for your frustration. Honestly, when there’s a major version upgrade, it takes months for diagnostic, structural and infrastructural software to catch up to it. In part, that’s because it takes months for the OS itself to settle down from the post-release bugs that were discovered. Some of which, I would add, Shirt Pocket has themselves discovered and logged in this process. And in part, that’s because Quality Assurance is a damn hard job, that requires hours upon hours of grueling tests in multiple scenarios.
Just because he doesn’t post a blog doesn’t mean he’s not working on it. And just because you jumped in the pool before the lifeguard came on duty doesn’t mean the lifeguard owes you for your time.
21 Jan 2008 at 11:39 am | #
Thanks for the update Dave and for all your efforts you to make SuperDuper the best backup app.
21 Jan 2008 at 11:51 am | #
@Jessi: no, no ulcer, I don’t think. Just bags under my eyes, unshaven and tired.
@Eric Burns: in LSF’s defense, I think he said “reason to be frustrated”, not “right”. Hey, we’re all frustrated, perhaps me most of all.
@macFanDave: again, this wasn’t a matter of getting access to early builds of Leopard. We had, and used, those. But doing the initial engineering of an update that works with a test build, in test scenarious—even real-world scenarios on our own machines—is much different than testing that build with “real” customers (aka our external testers) after release. No matter how much testing we do internally, our external testers have different Macs, different drives, different usage patterns, and those tests can discover problems that need to be fixed. And so the cycle repeats.
So, if ZFS becomes the default file system (a really big question mark in itself, you know?), we’ll likely be in a similar situations. Sure, we’ll have more test cases to run against internally, but I guarantee that with a huge change like that we won’t be available day-and-date with release, because we would still have to do external testing with real customers, on the final, official, release build, and that can’t happen until it’s really out there.
21 Jan 2008 at 12:01 pm | #
Dave - I know that you probably do feel some pressure to have it out of the door sooner - but honestly - we’d all rather wait and get the right product that works perfectly rather than have a poor backup that we can’t use when the **** really does hit the fan and your internal drive fails ... !!
Best of luck with the coding.
J.
21 Jan 2008 at 12:02 pm | #
Best of luck as always Dave. I just hope the Leopard version of SD comes out before another kernal panic. My last full backup (outside of TM) is 25 October 2007. I really appreciate all of the effort and hope to see something soon.
Are you thinking hopefully by friday of this week? Thanks mate. Cheers.
21 Jan 2008 at 12:04 pm | #
Dave,
You are light years ahead of 99% of the developer world who would simply rather throw an app out to the public quickly to satisfy an arbitrary release date, than to hold off and really dig in to the core of the app to resolve all of it’s quirkiness. The process you are undergoing right now does nothing but add to your massive integrity as a developer. What that shows me as an end user, is that you not only care about your product, and your name that goes with it, but that when you say it’s done, IT’S DONE.
In then end, I can rest easy knowing full well that your app is going to work as advertised—and that one day, when all hell breaks loose, and I need to restore a system backup, I need not worry for one second that my SuperDuper backup is going to save my ass again.
Peace.
- Jacob
21 Jan 2008 at 12:07 pm | #
Thank you for your hard work getting it right and for not letting a few cry babies pressure you to rush it out unfinished.
21 Jan 2008 at 12:09 pm | #
Dave - I feel for you, I lost 3 whole months getting something to work on Vista that worked a treat in Tiger (and Leopard!) and W2k/XP. Keep at it, and keep the faith!
One day someone might even decide my software works and do a review, instead of ignoring it! Ho hum!
Looking forward to the release, whenever that is. I’ll wait
cheers
Biz
21 Jan 2008 at 12:10 pm | #
Patience is a virtue. I look forward to the release when in reaches your high standards. P.S. Does this update offer new goodies for Tiger users, or is it a Leopard only release?
21 Jan 2008 at 12:40 pm | #
No self-deprecation allowed. SuperDuper! rocks because it works like a champ. We’ll wait for the good stuff.
21 Jan 2008 at 01:21 pm | #
Before I forget (again!) thanks bunches and bunches for the tutorial about a Leopard Sandbox .. I kinda!@?@ forgot that Apple OS X is not Universal .. slight oversight (mine and Apple’s). Trust me, I’m looking forward to the Leopard version SuperDuper.
In the meantime, I have paid for CCC and am wondering if anyone on this blog has any first-hand experience cloning and subsequently backing up from their CCC clone ... I gotta do something. I do not really like Time Machine because there is evidence from TechTool Pro/Leopard that it fragments the hard drive horribly (250gb). Besides, I do not need snapshots, I just need a every-once-in-a-while clone.
Good therapy ... get outside with your “hairy child” and throw tennis balls or sticks and breathe all the fresh air.
21 Jan 2008 at 01:35 pm | #
Hey - we do know you’re working hard. And thanks for the updates.
Besides folks, it’s just software. Important software to be sure. But it’s not like Dave’s debugging the brakes on our kids’ school bus or something.
Everything in perspective. It’s out when it’s out. In the meantime, Time Machine and the Leopard Disks will get anyone where they need to go in an emergency between now and then. Yes it’s the long way around the block, but there are more important things to stress over. And I’m sure Dave is doing enough stressing for the bulk of us anyway.
-gb
21 Jan 2008 at 01:43 pm | #
Great to hear you guys are doing thorough testing of the product. There’s absolutely no use in doing a backup if it doesn’t work!
And anyways, it’s our own fault for upgrading to Leopard assuming all of the software we’ve come to love in Tiger will be there ready and waiting for us.
Keep up the great work!
21 Jan 2008 at 02:32 pm | #
Dave,
I’d rather have a version of SD that works flawlessly (like all past versions) and wait a bit than have you rush a questionable version out the door. Having lost data in the past, I’m counting on SD to keep that from happening again.
Take your time, get it right. The whiners would whine even louder if a “rushed” version of SD let them down.
Oh yeah, I’m unshaven, tired and have bags under my eyes too. Does that mean I’m a member of the SD development team??
Brian
21 Jan 2008 at 04:55 pm | #
Thank you for the update Dave. It is not necessary but it is appreciated. As for the complaints of laziness, incompetence, lack of communication and general suckitude, just remember that the reason that those few people are aggravated is because they are frustrated and not having your great software. If your software was lame no one would miss it. So keep working, keep things in perspective and know whether we are in the “I will wait for you forever” camp or the “you suck eggs” camp we all have one thing in common: We value your product immensely.
21 Jan 2008 at 05:46 pm | #
I finally figured it out!
You’re trying to get nominated for Wired’s Vaporware Awards!
21 Jan 2008 at 06:34 pm | #
Hey Dave, Thanks again for the update. When you are idly casting about for something to occupy your time (insert insane-laugh here), I would be interested to know how, if at all, the new Apple wireless backup disk sits in relation to SD.
Keep up the great work! Best, -Alan
21 Jan 2008 at 06:47 pm | #
no rush, mate! :D
21 Jan 2008 at 08:01 pm | #
I’m happy to wait for a product that works; Time Machine is adequate until then (I think - I haven’t tested it under real circumstances yet!). It’s nice to see your combination of 21st century uber-coding and 19th century pride in your work and your product - SD is built of steel, not plastic!
<sends e-hugs, e-razor, e-bedtime story> LOL
21 Jan 2008 at 08:51 pm | #
Keep working it, Dave. It’ll be done when it’s done.
21 Jan 2008 at 09:03 pm | #
Dave, by now, you know where I stand from my previous posts, but it’s amazing to see how, when you pre-acknowledged, the haters are almost silent. Here’s one for old time’s sake…
Wha?!! Another delay?? Dave, I can’t believe you still don’t have this ready. I don’t want to hear about any steenking magic folders. I want my freakin money back. I just bought SD six months ago and, @#@%@#%!, I’m entitled to my backups. Where’s that big stick with the rusty nails, pieces of bone and shards of glass in it? Ah, here it is, behind the Quadra 840AV! Now… WHOMP!!!… get that.... WHOMMPP-WHOMMPPPP!!!… update ready. You SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How was that, Haters? Did it seem sincere? OK, I’ll keep working on it. (Maybe I should have used more ALL CAPS, and some emoticons...)
21 Jan 2008 at 09:30 pm | #
When it’s all over ‘n done with, I think you should publish all these blogs in a book entitled “The Chronicles of Nanian.” I’d pay $27.95 for it. For the hard-back edition, that is.
(waiting...)
(still waiting...)
Dave, why is the book not out yet? What’s taking so long? This is ridiculous. It should have been out seconds ago. (JK! Rowling on the Floor Laughing)
21 Jan 2008 at 09:47 pm | #
Dave,
another post NOT complaining about laziness, incompetence, lack of communication and general suckitude. It’s great to know that you find and actually repair irregular behaviour before we all start making backups with SuperDuper and begin trusting them…
Keep up the good work!
Peter
21 Jan 2008 at 10:42 pm | #
I’d rather have no SD, than a buggy one that I then rely on - and then when it’s required it doesn’t deliver. Now that would be annoying…
22 Jan 2008 at 12:30 am | #
Awww man. I really feel for ya.
Best of luck with finding the problem and fixing it.
Looking forward to getting a working SD on Leopard!
22 Jan 2008 at 01:31 am | #
will the new release of 10.5.2 have a negative effect on your progress?
22 Jan 2008 at 02:44 am | #
Just wanted to let anyone with questions about Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC), the free cloning solution, I have used it multiple times since I got Leopard, and it seems to do fine with both backups and restorations. I have had minor issues with restored disks, but they’re nothing to worry about and I have no idea if it was because of CCC. It’s a highly recommended solution while you’re waiting for SD. I would consider ditching SD altogether except that SD seems to have a better “smart update” solution that I’m more comfortable with.
22 Jan 2008 at 04:36 am | #
Eager to see the final result and your hard work on this is an example to us all. I wish more software companies would give out these little statements so we would understand why things were delayed
22 Jan 2008 at 05:59 am | #
Sigh. I had my life mauled by Leopards because (my bad) I assumed that Superduper would work with Leopard, so when my hard drive got scrubbed (because I assumed iPartition would work with Leopard) my backup wasn’t functional. Totally my fault, told as warning and as to why I appreciate that when you say it will work it will.
All data was saved, and I’m slowly reinstalling the bits and pieces.
22 Jan 2008 at 07:10 am | #
Hang in there and don’t worry about anyone who complains about the delays.
Your software rocks because it is solid as a rock and I rely on it every day.
We trust you because you don’t trust your code till your tests are 100%.
22 Jan 2008 at 09:08 am | #
Keep rockin’ guys! Looking forward to the Great Leopardly Update
22 Jan 2008 at 09:12 am | #
I would be very tempted by an intermediate version that said: “this is ok, but don’t use it if...” ‘cause I could really do with an update, I’ve been on Leopard for a while, and I’m getting quite uncomfortable not having a solid backup.
Is there anyway I can usefully complain to Apple to get them to help you with this? As a consumer who uses Time machine, but really wants to use this option to. After all, this testing is entirely to backwards engineer something they are probably aware of…
22 Jan 2008 at 09:16 am | #
I think what’s starting to really upset me is the insinuation, first from commenters and now from Dave himself, that users have no cause to complain. I understand there are issues and that you want to release a 100% solid product. I go through the same rigamarole with my bosses at work but it never stops them from wanting the solution YESTERDAY.
Delays aren’t always a developers problem, but the fact is that the developer will always be on the line for them. That’s the way it is. It comes with the job. Deal.
22 Jan 2008 at 09:35 am | #
@Derek: I am absolutely not saying users can’t, or shouldn’t, complain. I’m simply trying to tell you what’s going on, and why.
If you feel that there are things to complain about, complain—the only “editing” I’ve done to comments in the blog, in one case, was to delete a message from someone who was personally attacking someone who was complaining, which I thought was not OK… because I thought they had every right to complain without being belittled. In fact, I’ve even explicitly said that I’m as frustrated as you guys are. Which I am.
@AlastairC: no, I don’t think that’d help. But thanks.
@dave: please see elsewhere in the comments (perhaps the previous post’s comments) for a discussion of 10.5.2.
@Alan Bristow: since Time Capsule isn’t out yet, we really don’t know.
22 Jan 2008 at 11:01 am | #
You guys rule and so does your software!
22 Jan 2008 at 11:20 am | #
Very good communication Dave! All the best from the Netherlands.
22 Jan 2008 at 12:06 pm | #
Keep up the xlnt work & we all look forward to the xlnt SW release that I know it will be! Will chip in for the Mylanta! : )
22 Jan 2008 at 12:18 pm | #
I can’t imagine how frustrating this has been for you, I hope you never find yourself in such a trying situation again. SD is by far the best of breed and certainly a product worth waiting for. However…
I have to agree with #45 & #46 above. It seems from your blog that for much of this rewrite
the problem areas have been known and narrowly focused. Yet 100% of your customers cannot use
the product because of a problem that may occur with 1% of them. If this situation should arise again (and I truly hope for all our sakes it does not), there has to be a quicker fix with parameters outlined as to situations that may be problematic and require caution and patience. The truth is, this is a retail product that you sell and advertise as necessary. I paid for this product and haven’t been able to use it for months. I understand the reasons why, but I wonder how many other companies could go so long with a product they sold being non-functional (readers of Apple’s forums won’t have to imagine how ugly it can be). You seem like a very nice guy, Dave, but when my store was out of a product my customers didn’t want to hear that the truck drivers were on strike, that the supplier ran out, that all my crew had the flu and couldn’t do inventory properly. I was supposed to make it work anyway. Just human nature. And they expected me to be sorry, and I was. Count yourself lucky in at least one way, though, as I am amazed at the people who want to pay you again for a product they haven’t been able to use. Most customers would expect you to give them some kind of compensation for what they view as their trouble, yours have almost unanimously rallied ‘round. Best of luck.
22 Jan 2008 at 12:24 pm | #
Derek wrote:
“I think what’s starting to really upset me is the insinuation, first from commenters and now from Dave himself, that users have no cause to complain.”
If you find cause, you have the right to complain. But I personally DO NOT give you the right to advocate by ways of complains, pressure, or other means, for the release of an unfinished product that will not work for me.
22 Jan 2008 at 12:35 pm | #
So will Leopard 10.5.2 throw another monkey wrench into the coding works ? Or, are you already testing against the latest seed ?
22 Jan 2008 at 12:51 pm | #
@Gary Kohl:
I think you’re making the same error earlier posters made, when you say “I paid for this product and haven’t been able to use it for months”.
You paid for a backup program that runs under OS X Tiger, and it still does that fine. You never paid for a version of Super Duper that runs under OS X Leopard, because that has not been for sale.
It is just wrong to argue ‘I paid for it and now I am unhappy because the thing I paid for isn’t here yet’.
I too paid for Super Duper and have used it under Tiger. I’m very happy I did because this fall my MacBook’s harddrive crashed and I would have lost a lot of data if not for my backup. THAT is what I paid for. Not (at least, not yet) for using it under Leopard.
I think your comparison is right though: in a shop situation, people expect you to do the best you can. And that is what we expect from Dave. I think he’s working very hard on it. So just wait until it’s done. It’s not going to get here any sooner because you and me paid for it.
22 Jan 2008 at 12:53 pm | #
@Gary Kohl: This has been said before, but SD is fully compatible with Tiger. You chose to be an early adopter of Leopard (as did I).
How long have you been a Mac user? I have been using Mac since System 6. Since I started using a Mac, versions 6x, 7x, 8x, 9x, 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4 and now Leopard have all broken varying numbers of third party software titles, as have chip changes such as the move to the PowerPC chip and the move to the Intel chip. It’s incumbent upon the user—not the third party software companies—to make sure all the apps he/she can’t live without are compatible with the version of operating system and hardware he/she is planning to upgrade to before taking the plunge.
On the other hand, it’s good for business to have your software compatible with the latest version of system software and the latest machines. Of course, Dave knows this.
But don’t blame Dave for decision on when to upgrade your system. That was your choice (and mine).
Peace out.
22 Jan 2008 at 01:00 pm | #
I really appreciate the testing procedure that you’re going through. This software and my mixer drivers are the only thing keeping me from upgrading to leopard(again)! The process you are going through keeps the end users from multiple headaches we would otherwise endure! Thank you so much. Sorry for the ulcer,and thanks for taking one for the team! that’s dedication to your customers!
-Jimi Lee
http://www.indieradiochattanooga.com
22 Jan 2008 at 02:01 pm | #
Hal and Michael, I agree with you, and for that reason I have waited this long to post. But when I purchased SD it was with the expectation that it would be updated in a timely fashion. Now I know that the problems Dave has encountered are not his fault, and that he is working his butt off to rectify them. But similar problems may arise with 10.5.2 and what I’m seeking here is a plan “B” in case they do, as I do not believe this update has been “timely”. I have been using Macs since OS 7 and have never had to wait this long for what Dave rightly calls an essential piece of software to be updated to work with the current version of the OS - which is one reason I felt safe being an early adopter. I do not think that I should have to wait this long to use the version of the Mac OS I prefer simply because a software program I have purchased in the last year or so can’t be made to work with it. So my point is simply that as a paying customer my needs are that some mechanism be put in place for I and other customers like me can use SD in the event that this situation arises again. I love SD, I greatly appreciate the work Dave and the team are doing, but I truly believe that the current situation is untenable.
22 Jan 2008 at 02:05 pm | #
<<deleted by moderator - too abusive toward Gary, sorry.>>
22 Jan 2008 at 02:33 pm | #
@Gary: Then you’re fortunate. I waited great lengths of time, closer to a year, I believe it was, on Adobe to get CS3 to make its creative suite compatible/universal with Intel Macs, and since Leopard’s release, I am in need of another CS3 upgrade to remedy flaky behavior with from the InDesign component of that suite. In short, Adobe isn’t yet fully compatible with Leopard as of today. I’ve waited long periods of time for Quark, Freehand, and Suitcase upgrades over the years. It’s not fun, but it’s not uncommon.
Dave happens to be in the crosshairs because his software has to be more flawless than most others. It’s not the end of the world if InDesign is unstable and crashes once or twice a day on me, but having a non-functioning backup when I need it would be pretty catastrophic.
Still, in the spirit of this blog, may the floggings continue until morale improves (and until 2.5 is released).
22 Jan 2008 at 03:11 pm | #
@Gary Kohl: I must say, I can’t quite see what you’re getting at - you throw out nebulous statements about “expectations” and “mechanisms” and “problems may arise” and nothing concrete. It’s provably impossible to foresee any possible failure—especially when parts of the OS that should be utterly reliable turn out to be otherwise. So, short of reverting your installation to a version of Mac OS X that is known to work, I don’t know what “mechanism” you expect anyone to devise that could possibly have any chance of working. As to your “expectations”, I regret to say that any difference between your expectations and whatever the reality turns out to be is something that you’re going to have to reconcile on your own.
22 Jan 2008 at 03:26 pm | #
Thanks for the update, Dave.
I keep alternating backups between Time Machine, Mozy, and ChronoSync to a RAID/NAS (am I being paranoid?
just in case one of them fails (like my last FW backup disk). Yet none of them will be good enough if I get a massive disk crash on my system boot disk. So I come back and check here every few days for SD on Leopard. The only thing worse than having a system crash now is making bootable backups and discovering after the fact that they were corrupted all along.
So put me down as one of those appreciative of the meticulous way you’re going about getting it right.
22 Jan 2008 at 03:48 pm | #
Brian: I did get to read your post before it was deleted. All I can say is that I was in retail for 3 decades and always believed that a customer was a customer whether they spent $5 or $5000, and therefore deserved my attention.
Hal: Again, I don’t disagree, except to say that those companies all made it clear well before hand that their programs would not be compatible for quite some time. I was referring more to small developers like Dave who work hard in smaller operations. My bad for not clarifying.
Rich: If 10.5.2 comes out and breaks all of Dave’s and the teams’ hard work again, as may happen, I’d like Dave to consider doing something he decided not to do in an earlier post. That is, if after a certain period of time the problems can’t be solved, give us a version which will work in specific situations. As I said in my first post, Dave has made it clear that for a while now it’s a very specific problem holding things up. I realize he’s anxious to make the program perfect and we all use SD because it has always been perfect, but what I’m suggesting has been suggested before: a temporary version to be used under carefully stated situations only. I’m o.k. with Time Machine while I wait for my OS backup, but I have very large data files which change often and I can’t use with Time Machine - but from what Dave is saying, it sounds like I could use with SD as is. I’m asking that if a protracted series of problems occurs in the future, he considers again the
option of a stop-gap version, because that’s what my need is. If this isn’t important to enough other people, then, o.k., I’ll just have to deal. But I wanted to make the SD crew aware of my needs.
That’s all from me folks. Hope I’ve provoked some useful dialog and not just a lot of anger.
22 Jan 2008 at 04:06 pm | #
@Gary Kohl
I think what you’re asking for is not unreasonable, and I disagree with anyone who thinks that somehow you shouldn’t be asking Dave to consider it. But in the end I think probably it’s a bad idea because let’s face it there are plenty of people out there who will ignore (or simply not understand) whatever warnings Shirt Pocket might put in place.
The other thing, of course, is that SD 2.5.0 will still need some bug fixes once it gets into the wild. The last thing Shirt Pocket needs is to still be dealing with a time-consuming, elusive, and intractable bug while also dealing with the flood of new bug reports that will come with the first public release.
22 Jan 2008 at 04:14 pm | #
Thanks Dave for the update, SD is the best and the best is worth waiting for. It has never let me down and this is down to your hard work and dedication to getting it right, I will wait patiently and wish you a speed completion. Thanks for the past updates, I look forward to the next. Respect!
22 Jan 2008 at 04:14 pm | #
general suckitude!!!
thats a good one.....
No rush.........
It has been said before ....but.....
I’d rather have no SD that a buggy SD......
Take your time and get it right.....
Just like your are doing!!!
Thanks for the update!!
22 Jan 2008 at 08:21 pm | #
Although I tend to be a very impatient person, I’m really grateful for the extra care and time you’re giving to be sure the Leopard version of SuperDuper it make totally dependable. Wouldn’t it be a joy if some of the giant corporate software vendors (do I mean M?) took as much care before they release a product yo the market.
22 Jan 2008 at 09:47 pm | #
@Hal Neal
How long have you been a Mac user? I have been using Mac since System 6. Since I started using a Mac, versions 6x, 7x, 8x, 9x, 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4…
Have been using since 1.0 with the Macintosh 128 in 1984.
22 Jan 2008 at 09:52 pm | #
@Ross: That question was directed at Gary, within the context of how long I’ve often had to wait for upgrades to be released.
But congrats on being a charter user.
22 Jan 2008 at 10:49 pm | #
I don’t believe you (shirt-pocket) are lazy, or that you suck. Superduper is a great product. But after getting back from macworld, and now going into the 4th month of no update, I think it’s quite clear that your company is completely over its head, simply without the resources to get a leopard version out in a decent time period.
And again, I say this as a big fan of superduper, and the support you put behind your product. Those two things are why you could still be using the ‘get it right’ excuse a year from now and there would still be people here telling you it’s ‘ok, thanks for doing things right!”, which of course would be nonsense.
I have confidence in shirt-pocket putting out great software. I no longer have confidence that you can stay up with changes. I guess that’s the good and the bad.
23 Jan 2008 at 12:15 am | #
Just want to chime in as another person willing to wait.
We quiver with...an...ti...ci..............(say it).....pation.
23 Jan 2008 at 12:45 am | #
@g:
“I have confidence in shirt-pocket putting out great software. I no longer have confidence that you can stay up with changes.”
Huh? I believe you’re contradicting yourself.
The thing is, 4 months after Leopard’s release, Leopard still sucks in certain areas. My printer driver windows stay open after a job has finished printing, Mail opens two windows when I drag an attachment onto the Mail icon in the dock, and apparently Leopard creates Magic Folders, which sound like a screw up rather than an intent. Maybe Apple’s in over its head. Leopard feels kinda beta-ish sometimes, does it not?
Makes those Mac commercials about Vista users downgrading to XP ring a bit hollow.
Dave, next time, if I were you, I don’t think I’d post any updates. Take a lesson from Steve Jobs. He never mentions the struggles. Only the achievements. Oh, by the way, has everyone forgotten that Leopard was nearly a year late being released? And it was still hurried out the door.
23 Jan 2008 at 01:31 am | #
Just remember to pull over and have a sandwich, occasionally.
23 Jan 2008 at 01:51 am | #
"Huh? I believe you’re contradicting yourself.”
Not at all.
“Leopard feels kinda beta-ish sometimes, does it not?”
Nope. Not at all. I’ve had none of the problems you’ve had. Of the people I know personally who’ve switched to leopard, and I now a lot, only a few have had any problems and all have been minor. At macworld I was a part of and listened to hundreds of conversations about leopard and the general consensus was that it was well worth the upgrade. Not a single time did I hear anyone wish they were still using tiger. So I’d say you’re in the minority.
Regardless, arguing your point by pointing to supposed leopard problems is neither here nor there. So I’m not sure where you’re going with that line of thinking.
A backup with a problem here or there is better than no backup at all.
23 Jan 2008 at 02:04 am | #
Could you perhaps tell us what problems we might run into when using 2.1.4 under Leopard? Is this something we should just not do, or will it get everything right except for a few issues that you might be able to enumerate?
Thanks.
23 Jan 2008 at 08:16 am | #
@g: I’d say the problems I’ve had are minor, other than a nasty keychain problem that Leopard shipped with, which screwed me up, but part of that was my fault because Apple offered an update to fix it right away, but I had my software update set to check weekly, so I went for a week not using the latest version, like an idiot. Don’t get me wrong. I love Leopard and it’s new features. I wouldn’t go back because of the these minor glitches.
Back to My Mac is a great feature, but it’s another thing that seems to be flawed. I thought it had something to do with sleep modes, but I’ve told all my Macs to never sleep, and it still loses its functionality after awhile in use, so it doesn’t seem to be quite ready for prime time either. Or maybe it’s me and not Leopard.
I love my iPhone (which has had a slightly buggy OS history too, btw; thankfully the latest upgrade seems much better), and I covet the new lower-priced 8-core machine and the MB Air and Time Capsule. In short, I’m what the dark side calls a fan boy. I want pretty much everything Steve has ever said, “There’s one more thing...” about. But Steve’s given us a thimble full of Kool-Aid this past year along with all the amazing hardware and software. But it’s all been definitely worth the trade off.
Leopard was verrrrryyy late, based on when Steve first led us to believe it would be out. I know a lot of the lateness was because he shifted resources over to iPhone because he had committed to a firm release date on the that, but it was very late. I take it you don’t disagree with me there.
Do me a favor. Drag a PDF or JPEG or something like that onto the Mail icon in the dock and tell me whether two Mail windows pop up or not. Just curious.
And when you print, your printer window opens, prints the job, then closes like it’s supposed to? I wish mine did.
23 Jan 2008 at 08:47 am | #
@Hal Neal:
“Do me a favor. Drag a PDF or JPEG or something like that onto the Mail icon in the dock and tell me whether two Mail windows pop up or not. Just curious.”
Yes, that is a known bug (I filed a bug and got a reply from Apple saying: yes, we know thanks).
Quite annoying :p
23 Jan 2008 at 09:14 am | #
@g: I apologize. I just tried the drag and drop mail test on my MBP and I don’t get the double-window thing happening. I know two other people that are having the problem, so I just assumed it was something most people were just living with. (yeah, I know what you get when you assume.)
I do get the print window staying open on both machines, but that may be an Epson driver problem. Dunno.
Also, when I stop an email in “mid-send” in Mail, I don’t get an Outbox, so it’s hard to get to that email . Workaround: I send a second email, wait for the Outbox to appear, then go into it and get rid of both emails. And, for a very long time (definitely in Tiger’s version of Mail), when I send a JPEG to a person on a PC, they tell me to re-send as an attachment, so it’s getting embedded. My workaround has been to format the email as plain text. I was hoping Leopard would fix that old Mail problem, but it didn’t. And, yes, I have “Windows-Friendly Attachments” checked.
OK, I’ll shut up now about Leopard, since all in all, it is an awesome OS, and, moreover, since this is a SuperDuper blog.
23 Jan 2008 at 09:18 am | #
@Martin: Thanks for the info. I won’t bother trying to troubleshoot, in that case.
23 Jan 2008 at 09:19 am | #
just for curiosity I tried - drag a file onto Mail - only ONE window opens here.
23 Jan 2008 at 10:00 am | #
Not running Mail in leopard yet, but I do get printer windows staying open. I only print to HP printers here at work, so its not an Epson issue as suggested earlier here.
23 Jan 2008 at 10:21 am | #
My printer windows (or more accurately, the printer “application") stay open or in the dock after I print, too. And I use HP printers at work, and Canon printers at home. Whatever happened to “automatically quit when finished printing?” I hate having to manually print.
@Gary Kohl. I think your idea of releasing an unfinished version that only works under certain defined parameters would work, but not in this specific case. What Dave is describing with the issue is a bug in the operating system. It’s hard to tell under what conditions the bug manifests itself (though he’s obviously developed test cases and instructions on how to generate them for the testers), and under what conditions the “magic folders” get created. Ok, so maybe 1% of people are affected. But how do they know they are affected? What if they run programs that create hard-linked folders with the “magic bit” set and don’t know? All it would take would be one or two people who assumed they wouldn’t get bitten by the bug to get bitten by it and then say “SuperDuper is buggy,” despite the fact they were warned.
Now, if he released it under a set of EASILY identifiable parameters, “i.e. will work under 10.5.0 and 10.5.1 but NOT 10.5.2,” then it might make more sense.
Also, I should point out that it took Alsoft over a year to go from Diskwarrior 3 to Diskwarrior 4. And it took them 6 months after Apple announced the Intel switch to release an Intel-compatible version. And a Leopard-compatible version has yet to show up. And I think it’s going to take them a while longer before it does. Diskwarrior, like SuperDuper, is one of those software utilities that has to be ABSOLUTELY PERFECT the FIRST time. I’m willing to bet that Alsoft got the golden master the same time as Dave did. On release day. The LEAST Apple should do is get the Golden Master in the hands of developers a month before shipping. But nooooo, they’re too afraid of leaks, so EVERYONE suffers. I’m not saying it’s not Dave’s fault, but Apple definitely shares in the blame here.
I agree with everyone else here. I’m glad Dave is taking the time to get it right, even if we have to wait a bit longer.
23 Jan 2008 at 10:43 am | #
@Hal Neal “My printer driver windows stay open after a job has finished printing...”
Right click on the Dock icon and select “Auto Quit.” Then the printer queue application will quit and disappear from the Dock once it’s finished processing the print job.
And Dave, thanks for the latest update. Unlike some others above, I’m not so presumptuous as to use the “we” word to speak for users I don’t even know (with regard to whether the wait is acceptable or not); but, I’m satisfied with the apparent progress being made on a Leopard-compatible SuperDuper. It’s not like there’s a total void with respect to an interim back-up solution...use TimeMachine. Granted, it’s much more time intensive to recover a hard drive from TimeMachine but I’ve seen reports of folks doing it without issues. So there is a work-around...one already build into the OS and obviously blessed by Apple. Certainly a better alternative than just waiting an indeterminate time for the SuperDuper update and hoping that nothing will fail in the interim.
23 Jan 2008 at 11:20 am | #
@Felix: Thanks. I love it when it’s something obvious like that.
23 Jan 2008 at 12:06 pm | #
Hal Neil said:
“Dave, next time, if I were you, I don’t think I’d post any updates. Take a lesson from Steve Jobs. He never mentions the struggles. Only the achievements. Oh, by the way, has everyone forgotten that Leopard was nearly a year late being released? And it was still hurried out the door.”
First, please don’t make historical statements unless you can back them up.
Leopard was announced at WWDC in August 2006, with a scheduled release date of “spring 2007”.
http://www.macrumors.com/events/wwdc2006.html
Most people anticipated that Leopard would be released prior to WWDC in June 2007, but in April 2007 Apple announced a 4 month delay in order to refocus their OS X developers on the iPhone.
http://www.tuaw.com/2007/04/12/apple-announces-leopard-delays-due-to-the-iphone/
While a 4 month delay is eerily similar to what’s happening with SD, it also is a far cry from being “nearly a year” or “verrrrryyy late”.
I haven’t posted a comment here for over a month. Why? Because I felt my criticisms weren’t coming across to the majority here.
Being a developer myself, I can certainly sympathize with the frustrations Dave is going through. What I didn’t agree with was the lack of a regular update back in November and early December. Leopard was released October 26, and 7 weeks later (December 14), there was all of three updates. When I mentioned this in the comments, others made me feel like I was being unreasonable to the point that I felt my thoughts were not wanted.
Since December 14, there’s been 4 updates in a bit over 5 weeks. I think that’s a bit more timely, and have no real problem with how things are going.
I’m not looking for a daily update - hell, most of the time that would mean a post saying “testing is ongoing”. I’d like to see a post saying something to the effect of “if nothing else comes up through the next round of tests, we’ll release on [fill in target release date here]”. But that doesn’t seem to be Dave’s style and that’s cool.
I’m frustrated - but not as much a Dave is - but am patiently waiting. I’ve been keeping my archives up to date along with my remote backups and CCC clone. But I’m standing by my original comments that a timely update helps. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that!
23 Jan 2008 at 12:40 pm | #
@all,
Ok the Mail thing is way off-topic. However there is a bug and a way to reproduce it (which I cannot remember right now). It doesn’t happen always. But Apple is aware of it (it hapens to me for example), and they will -eventually- fix it. Let’s just hope 10.5.2 brings some more fixes to the Mail arena. Mail has loads of small bugs in Leopard. The TO-Do, Notes, thing *suc*s big time
Try using only the keyboard. :p
Back to SD!, unfortunelly I haven’t been included in the beta program (I would have loved to because as a user and developer with great enfasis in usability/UI design I could’ve added some positive -and negative- feedback), but I trust that it’s going to work great
Let’s all be patient.
23 Jan 2008 at 01:32 pm | #
@Dave: You’re right about Spring 07 being the release date. I stand corrected. I didn’t think about the technicality that June 20 is the last official day of spring. I assumed March or April, now that I think back, so yeah, I was fudging for dramatic effect. So I’m 0 for 2. It then came out in the 4th quarter. And it was prematurely released, in my opinion. Assuming 10.5.2 gives us the old rock solid OS that we’ve come to expect, it will be close to Spring 08 before Apple gets it right.
So let’s compromise. Let’s call it 6 months or so late, and somewhat flawed but functional when it did come out, but still a nice upgrade from Tiger.
@Stavros: Disk Warrior’s not ready either? That’s a little worrisome too. That’s a great app and has saved me a number of times, but obviously wouldn’t save me if something catastrophic happened today.
23 Jan 2008 at 02:43 pm | #
From the update: “… and so we’re going to implement Workaround Part IV: The Reworkening”.
I just have to say, even though it wasn’t pre-screened for critics, I’m really happy Rutger Hauer is still working.
23 Jan 2008 at 02:53 pm | #
@Hal Neal: Hal, the haters are silent because they are gone. The haters waited and then Christmas came. The haters waited and then MacWorld came. MacWorld is long gone and with it 99% of the haters. No amount of hate can last as long as the time it is taking to release a Leopard compatible SD!. That is why the whining has slowed down, only the believers are left.
23 Jan 2008 at 02:59 pm | #
@oscar: Where’d they go? I might like to try what they’re having.
23 Jan 2008 at 03:12 pm | #
@Stavros:
If you Control-Click on the printer icon in the dock you’ll see a menu item for “Auto-Quit.” This will solve the problem you described.
It should be set up as the default but for some peculiar reason it isn’t.
Cheers.
23 Jan 2008 at 04:02 pm | #
Scott:
Thanks for the tip on the printer icon. It’s been bugging me - and now it goes away.
You meet some more knowledgeable folks on the SuperDuper! blog.
Now if we can get Dave “over the hump”, all will be well.
23 Jan 2008 at 04:45 pm | #
oscar: I really hope you don’t see the world that way. People can disagree without one group being haters and the other believers. People can have legitimate needs that cause them to disagree with you without them being evil. Demonizing those who disagree with you has led to many of the worst problems in the world today.
And every “hater” that’s lost is actually a paying customer that is lost, and I don’t think anyone wants to see Shirt Pocket lose any money - I’d much rather those their pockets get full so SD can hire all the help they need for Dave - for both his sake and ours.
23 Jan 2008 at 04:52 pm | #
Do you provide ADC with the list of defects you encounter so they can address them in future releases? Or are some these problems just a “feature” of Leopard OS?
23 Jan 2008 at 05:05 pm | #
Thanks for the update on your progress.
I am using Time Machine to back-up my Mac Pro from one internal HD to another internal HD. While I think TM is wonderful, I am still a little wary of relying on it exclusively. Therefore, I am looking forward to using SuperDuper to back up my primary HD to an external Firewire HD, which I keep in a fire safe.
I have been using Macs at home for more than 20 years and I have only experienced two HD crashes. Thanks to diligent back-up habits, both crashes were relatively painless. I developed my back-up habits by backing up my first HD (70MB - $1,000) to 3.5” dual sided floppy discs. Today, using multiple HDs and SuperDuper is like a jumbo jet compared to the horse and wagon back-up system that I started with many years ago.
23 Jan 2008 at 05:41 pm | #
I posted this to AllMacs yahoo group and wanted to share it with the developers and users of SuperDuper!
I know everyone tells you to do a backup, and there are many methods to do this.
I wanted
to share with other Mac users my backup and restore success story using
SuperDuper!
A friend acquired a Mac G4 running Tiger. While the internal drive in this
system was years
old, the choice was made to do daily backups and when the drive fails, simply
replace it,
restore and move on.
I selected SuperDuper! for my friend and at the end of each session, SuperDuper!
was run
with a Smart Update, with the option to have it automatically do a shutdown.
This worked
out fine.
After 4 months later, an error message appeared at boot-up that the internal
drive was
having problems. After booting from an external drive’s rescue partition it was
clear that
drive needed to be replaced.
A quick trip to Staples Office store with a replacement drive. I swapped them
out, booted
from external hard disk’s rescue partition, and got the new drive ready. I then
had it do a
copy using SuperDuper to restore the drive. After the copying, I was able to
boot from the
new drive and it worked perfectly. My friend didn’t loose a single byte of data
and was able
to continue working as before, which included still doing daily SuperDuper!
backups.
External disk drives are very cheap, and it is a good investment to get an
external drive
larger than what you need to backup. This way, you can have a rescue partition,
and
multiple partition backups, trading off “even” and “odd” days, so you always
have a
working bootable copy just incase the backup fails and messes up what it is
backing up to.
Or you needed to retrieve something from the backup before last.
What I found out is important using SuperDuper! is that it backups up
everything,
including the meta data, and even the creation date of the drive. It really is
doing a clone.
You can use it in the free version, but for a crummy $27.00 you can get the full
version
which allowed the smart update for backups which is well worth it.
SuperDuper! is very easy to use, and to learn more about it I highly recommend
people go
visit their web site to check it out by going to:
http://www.shirt-pocket.com/SuperDuper/SuperDuperDescription.html
Warning: The Leopard version according to their web site is still being worked
out, but do
yourself a huge favor and bookmark it. If you are using Tiger, you can use it
right now as I
am doing.
23 Jan 2008 at 05:52 pm | #
Beautiful man, just beautiful. I need a Kleenex.
23 Jan 2008 at 10:17 pm | #
I have been waiting for this for months since I set it up on my parents computer as a test case (little to no data changing, small drive, not used often so I could have it unusable for some time). I tried TimeMachine, hated it, disabled it, realized SD wasn’t compatible in OSX, sat for a few weeks without any backup, got nervous, turned TM back on and swallowed my irritation. I absolutely will buy this once it is done and working. Keep up the work, and the day its released will make the wait worthwhile.
Thanks!
23 Jan 2008 at 11:27 pm | #
I’m eagerly awaiting the new version, and will desperately want to trade some money for a Leopard compatible SD.
As seen from many more of the comments, your work is appreciated and thanks for doing what you do.